Thursday, October 02, 2008

Rap's Post-Lyrical Phase Pt. III: What's the Point of Post-Lyricism?

First, before reading this or uh, in addition to reading this, go back and read the comments in the other two parts which totally take this discussion in places I hadn't thought of or connected. My apologies for not being able to more actively engage the comments like usual, I was too busy buying comic books this weekend.

As suggested in the first part of this, the point of "post-lyricism"--whether it knows it or not--is a sort of total breaking away of "the Nas formula". There are plenty of flaws in calling it "the Nas formula" (the formula certainly existed before Nas) but it's also an easy way to communicate the kind of lyricism that's both undeniably great and simply not happening as much anymore (certainly not on the radio) and not really working anymore either.

The word "formula" too, is used advisedly, not as any kind of slam against Nas, but to note the way the signs and signifiers of Nas and company's type of rapping has devolved into a bunch of things you can do to get a lot of dumb people (which is most people and therefore, most raps fans, including "serious" hip-hop heads) to think you're good or celebrate because it opposes say, Soulja Boy.

Certainly, it isn't this simple and the assertion I'm about to make's a little too cynical, but following or not following "the Nas formula" is in part, an economic choice. And not in the sense of rapping like Nas makes you "serious" and not rapping like Nas makes you a sell-out. In the current rap climate of declining record sales and all that crap, choosing to rap in one way or the other determines your rarified audience. Take someone like Immortal Technique, who no doubt, thinks he's in the vein of Nas or something. His choice to be in some ways "throwback", along with his contact, has given him a very specific and dependable audience of nostalgics and left-leaning rap fans (these categories of course, overlap a great deal).

When there's some college open mic or when your favorite college radio rap show opens the phones for listeners to kick a free style, following "the Nas formula", if you're not completely wack, will get you a lot of love right off the bat. By following "the Nas formula" you court a small, but powerful and devoted groups of listeners that will like you. In many ways, "the Nas formula" is easier and safer too. Who knows where the hell say, T-Pain came from, but if you stuck him on any stage as an unknown, he'd get laughed the fuck off the stage! Now, that could be used as evidence that it's absurd this rappa ternt sanga's so big right now, but it also points toward the way very popular music is often weird and uncool before it's popular.

Even the Soulja Boy-style fan of rap music, when confronted with "the Nas formula" in person or without the context of it being hot or not on MTV or the radio, will respond positively to this tried and true formula, because it's still what kids do in middle-school when they're "freestyling" with their friends. Of course, stick that freestyler in the studio with access to some real equipment, maybe some background singer girls, and corporate pressure to make a hit and he won't make the next "It Ain't Hard to Tell".

The economic choice in rejecting "the Nas formula" isn't really worth going over, is it? Slower, simpler, makes it easier on the ears, more crossover appeal, etc. etc.

While many would be quick to defend "Nas formula" rappers as not making so much of an economic choice, but as keeping it real or true, that argument or that simple argument rather, can't be made for the post-lyricists. And no doubt, a lot of rappers (or "rappers" if you want to be a dick about it) adopt the post-lyrical style out of a lack of talent or creativity of patience, and while the tone of this makes Kanye and Wayne into hyper-innovators that they are not--as I said, they're kinda hopping onto a trend, they just happen to be more famous--there is a sense that a whole bunch of rappers are simply not interested in doing "the Nas formula". Whether they lyrically have the talent to do it or not is not the issue, at least for me. It's probably true that Picasso couldn't paint like Titian or some shit, but who cares and we save the discussion for 'Post-Modernism in Art 101' or some shit.

In many ways, "post-lyricism" can be stuck on Andre 3000. Certainly one of the brightest and more lyric-oriented rappers from any region, Andre's also been pretty weird and out-there since the first Outkast album. Over time, he increasingly played with meter and rhymes and adopted a purposefully rambling, off-topic style, all while remaining, for the most part, conventionally "lyrical" or lyrical enough to not be labelled wack by anybody.

Take a listen to ATLiens, the album before Outkast got rock-critic "weird" and were just weird and an inarguable rap classic no matter where you're from. Sure, it contains plenty of brilliant lyrical moments resembling "the Nas formula", but it's also got plenty of purposefully bad similes ("tight like nuts and bolts" from "Two Dope Boyz (In a Cadillac)"), or tangential near-non rhymes ("Elevators"). His recent "return" to rap, which some people perceive as "overrated", dives further into these post-lyrical tropes and comes out at times awkward or weird, but always affecting.

The moments of conventional, "Nas formula" brilliance are punctuated by stranger rhymes, jokes, nonsense, and round-about ways of expression. From the conventional "lyrical" definition, Andre's inconsistent, but all those inconsistencies and idiosyncracies are being used towards a greater point/message/feeling whatever and wouldn't resonate half as much if he stayed within the bounds of "the Nas formula". Take Ghostface's work outside of the Wu since Supreme Clientele and you'll find a greater breadth and depth of emotion than is found on even really real shit like "Tearz". What those two greats did was take parts of "the Nas formula" and build upon it and occasionally, fall back on it.

Of course, you'll get barely anybody complaining about Andre 3000 or Ghostface they way so many complain about Kanye or Lil Wayne, but their post-lyricism comes out of Andre and Ghost's post-lyricism. It's got even less to do with "the Nas formula" and therefore rhymes less and takes the lyrical carnival games and joke punchlines to even goofier places. And still, despite what their detractors say, Kanye and Wayne can still drop a brilliant line or verse and are quite good at moving from the obnoxiously dumb to the really poignant.

Worshippers of "the Nas formula" might call this inconsistent but that's sort of the point. Additionally, there's some added level of emotion to these lines because they're dropped in between a lot of shit talk and cutesy douche-baggery. You're caught in a loop of the latter two things for a bunch of lines or even a few songs, and then Wayne drops something like his domestic abuse reminisce in "Playing With Fire"--"Remember when your pussy second husband tried to beat ya?/Remember when I went into the kitchen, got the cleaver?"--or another obnoxious Kanye song about why fame and money sucks stumbles into a lyrical, almost like conventionally poetic line like, "You're on the other side of the glass/Of my memory's museum". Because it's not hot line after hot line, or even poignant emotional detail after poignant emotional detail, the ones they focus on have added weight.

In the past, I've called this "rap minimalism" and it works a lot like Minimalism as a music genre in general. Basically (and I'm super simplifying here), through repetition, the slightest variation takes on greater meaning or importance. Clipse are certainly rap minimalists--and sorta post-lyricists too--because they fall back on almost nonsense punchlines and repetitive material, but every once in a while, the guilt and world-weariness fumbling around in the background gets really clear for a verse or line. We Got It 4 Cheap Vol. 2 is pretty much a whole album of post-lyrical tropes (although delivered in "the Nas formula") until we get to Malice's "All the money in the world..." verse on the last track, "Ultimate Flow".

Young Jeezy, a more clear-cut example of post-lyricism, is pretty much not even rapping most of the time, so that when he does enter something resembling flow or reveals something, it means a lot more. For whatever reason, Jeezy's "They lock us in cages/The same nigga that's a star when you put em' on stages" is something that more than one teenager has brought up to me as a line that made them think.

So, the point of "post-lyricism" outside of some general want to move away from "the Nas formula" is to in some way or another, take bits and pieces of "the Nas formula" and meld it with less tried and true lyrical formulas and create something new, which has the emotional resonance and effect that "the Nas formula" once had. There's no denying that rappers of the "Nas" mold are simply not engaging new and younger listeners to rap, while Kanye and Wayne certainly are. And for all that's annoying or terrible about them to dudes like me and most of my readers that grew up on "the Nas formula", they are in their own way, as bizarre and rarified as any of those inexplicable Golden Era personalities that also had some pop appeal.

33 comments:

tray said...

it's also got plenty of purposefully bad similes ("tight like nuts and bolts" from "Two Dope Boyz (In a Cadillac)")

You do this a lot, where you purport to know that a bad line is a purposefully bad line. How can you tell? Is there a telltale tone of voice when a rapper's being purposefully bad, do you figure Andre's so good that if he drops a dud it must have been on purpose... I mean, Prodigy was a genius in the days of The Infamous, and he still found time to say, "all them out-of-town niggas know what time it is, and if they don't, they need to buy a watch, word up!" Intentionally corny post-lyricism avant la lettre, or just a great rapper nodding off for one bar?

Fernando said...

Great series of essays.

Im conflicted on your point of throwing a few lines to give them emphasis. Its almost becoming a cliche that you throw a "serious" or "meaningful" song at the end of your album to make it seem like your sayin something (i.e. Carter 3, both Clipse albums, Rick Ross, etc.) To me (full disclosure: i love the nas formula) its like you spit bullshit rhymes for 60 minutes (though creatively) and then give us something thoughtful. I start thinking, why couldnt you give me 40 minutes of thoughtful and 20 minutes of bullshit? I would rather hear that, but like i said, im a fan of the nas formula.

P.S. it was Malice who had that verse on Ultimate Flow. Again, i prefer malice to pusha cuz he gives us more of those thoughtful, why am i selling dope gems than pusha t. (Look no further than I'm Not you).

brandon said...

tray-
It's hard not to condescend to you when you make comments like this but again, just like, think a little harder about it.

It's purposefully bad in the sense that it's a throwaway, just a real quick, nothing-to-it line. It's like, sometimes a book or a movie or whatever, needs a sort of pointless or even boring scene to help it go along.

Kanye and Wayne do however, try really really hard to think of wacky and goofy punchlines and there's just no doubting they know those lines suck.

Fernando-
Thanks for the Clipse correction, dunno why I typed Pusha. While I agree with you about the "toss serious song at the end of album" thing, that doesn't really apply to lyrics where there's more of a sense of this undercutting or challenging what's said before and because it's throughout the songs and not just like, the "sorry I shot a dude" song 68 minutes into a 72 minute album, it's a little different.

Beezer B said...

I'm feeling you more with Part III. If you get to part 8 we'll be in 100% agreement and you can call it a book.

I tend to believe these rappers make those "bad on purpose" lines too. It's possibly just my and your level of cynicism being a bit lower. I cry a lot when watching sad bits of good films. I like to suspend my disbelief. If Andre says he's "tight like nuts and bolts" or "tight like corn braids" I just assume he's having a Lord Finesse moment. We all like Lord Finesse but he was "bad like Michael Jackson" one too many times. I'm sure Andre likes him too.

The main thing I can't feel amongst all this is that to me, Kanye is a terrible rapper. I get Wayne. I love Wayne and I guess a lot of people are the other way. They get Kanye and they don't do Wayne but I can't stand the dude's rapping.
I can't though disassociate it from his ego and bluster so perhaps I don't trust my own judgement on it any more. It's not even so much the lumpen, self-important lyrics as much as the contrived voice and pointed slurring. Can't stand the bloke.

I remember that I felt the same way about Jay-Z, possibly less fervently, somewhere between Dead Presidents and Izzo. The whole steez just grated with me. I wonder if Kanye and me will be cool again. I liked "You Can't Tell Me Nothin".

Zilla Rocca said...

"It's purposefully bad in the sense that it's a throwaway, just a real quick, nothing-to-it line. It's like, sometimes a book or a movie or whatever, needs a sort of pointless or even boring scene to help it go along."

This sums up a good majority of all Q-Tip's rhymes...and I love him still. He just spits to move the song along...and then say one memorable thing like "Industry rule #4,080..."

Nas spits so many jewels on "Nas is Like" they are sorta bleed together--there isn't 1 surefire moment everyone looks forward to when a DJ drops it a club/venue/mixshow. Busta, Luda, Jeezy, and Wayne LIVE for that 1 sing-a-long, quote-out-loud moment.

One of my fav. Andre lines is "Shh shh, softly, as if I played piano in the dark" whereas most peoples' is "Forever ever, ever ever, ever ever?"

I love Joell, Royce, Joe Budden, etc but they don't have 1 memorable moment like Ghostface's "You sexy motherfucking DAMN what's the recipe, you make a nigga wanna GODDAMN!" Kanye and Wayne have those moments next to clunkers like "I hate these niggas more than a Nazi" so their sins are mostly forgiven by listeners.

Jay (d)eff Kay said...

K Brandon, I'm tired of saying 'great piece'. So glad you dont sound totally jaded by wht todays rap music has to offer. The following point you made about post lyricism - "take bits and pieces of "the Nas formula" and meld it with less tried and true lyrical formulas and create something new" its a point a lot of hardcore 90s hip hop heads(who view the nas formula of cohesive storytelling and dense street poetry as the 'objective' peak of rap) refuse to recognize. i think the best of this new schoool of lyricism are bridging the gaps between several styles that rap has offered up until now. Take Jay-Z for example, who is much more subtle with his lyrical delivery than -Insert Nas disciple- here. He's bringing the audiences in with a superior level of flash and floss(obviously just the 20th century version of battle rap ethos),and utilizing his lyricism on the materialistic concepts, but he's still dropping jewels all along the way. Kanye and Wayne meld a variety of influences into pretty unique packages too. wayne for ex., arguably has a stylistic forefather in say ODB, or an MF Doom, maybe even Kool Keith. but he's obviously been able to take all of tht in and translate that into a much more successful mainstream product in the end. Kanye and Wayne certainly aren't idiots, but they seem less interested in seeming intelligent and more focussed on interesting and fun. Im generalizing here, but the nas formula doesnt seem fun to me. postlyricism on the other hand engages the audience much better, and as you alluded, in the hands of a better rapper, the jewels that these (post)lyricists drop , in between getting their audiences to shake their asses and wild out, typically have better reach and impact

Jay (d)eff Kay said...

also, this is quite possibly a horrendous analogy im about to make, but im lazy so here goes. every time i have this type of argument, a part of me feels like i'm essentially debating abt - which ones greater : shakespeare plays vs. the harry potter series. and i always end up thinking sure shakespeare's full of flowery prose and great writing in general, but excuse me haters, j.k rowling just got kids into reading again. and thats nothing to scoff at.

Tom Breihan said...

Hey Brandon,

I'm curious. Where do you fit someone like Cam into this geography? Or Devin?

k. orr said...

Pt 1 - Nas Formula on decline, Post Lyrical (an era where line after line of non-corny raps is considered nerdish) on upswing

The whole Nas Formula is very debateable, but I for one like to just put that sort of thing aside to see how far an idea can go.

Perhaps, the defn of the Nas Formula could be refined to address some concerns I have below.

We definitely know that there were very successful rappers prior to the Nas formula, some that co-existed @ the same time. (Pac and Bone for instance)

Pt 2 - Why? The Nas Formula sounds terrible over current production trends.

No debate that Nas sounds crappy over the Tunes, Swizz, Timbo, or anything remotely Southern....but as a general proposition...I can't ride with it.

- Jay Z's Big Pimpin - is that the end of the Nas formula?

- Clipse's 1st big joint, and nearly all of their 2nd lp - Are they post lyrical?

- Don Cannon/Dj Drama's very loop driven production (Wayne's Spitter, Ti's/Busta's Cannon Jeezy's Go Crazy)

Pt 3 - Now what? The Nas Formula in decline means that Nas Formula-esque lines have more punch amidst the bad/throway similes. Kind of a silver lining?

I dunno fam.

I think you come to this conclusion by not considering everything that affects the "state of rapping"

IMO, there are about 4 main factors that affect the "State of Rapping". Each individual factor has lots of sub-factors.

1) The Audience
- who is the audience?
- And how they affect the rap being made.

A lot of haters/critics/observers talk about certain audiences "skewing" the state of rap in one direction or another
a) white kids (which is bunk, imo)
b) women/teenage girls (which is also bunk, imo)
c) white teenage girls (omg, Becky is buying 50 Cent, what we'z gon do!)

^I think all of the above aren't true - but the perception is there - and people often care more about perception than truth. (see the elections of 2000 and 2004, but hopefully not 2008)

Outside of maybe Immortal Technique or Dead Prez (or someother irrelevant rappers), no one is really going out of their way to alienate a record buyer/concert goer.

And even in the case of IT and Dp's, the rhetoric attracts folks that they might shake their heads at.

2) The media outlets - blogs, msg boards, filesharing outlets, magazines, video shows, and commercial radio - how they distort the rap being made.

- Do leaks/filesharing have an effect on how people rap?


Aside from promising to shoot "bootleggers" on site (c) TI, is there anything else going on?

- What about what program directors decide to play, and not play?

I'm pretty sure Nas Formula rappers still send out promos, and they get pushed aside for the latest from Soulja Boy.


3)The record companies - who they choose to sign, promote, or not promote - and how that distorts the rap being made

So when Kast's Hey Ya/Gnarls Barkely Crazy got popular, did a whole bunch of "post hip hop" people get signed?

And now we're dealing with an onslaught of people who realize they can't rap, but now can sing/strum instead? And singing by definition is less wordy/lyrical driven than rapping, much less Nas Formula rapping.

I wonder if the record companies are looking for gym class heroes/ozomatli/bay area hybrid outfits.

4) And *finally* the rappers themselves.

When Jay Z tells that bloke in Oasis that he's a fucking rock star, and both Weezy and Dre3k both playing guitar badly?

(or all the rappers who say, they don't want to be called rappers, or fuck hip hop - kanye)..

Right now as it stands, you seem to put most of the blame on rappers spontaneously deciding to rap in a post-lyrical fashion and controlling the game that way.

Lemme throw out something that puts the other 3 factors into focus.

Allegedly, The Carter III leaked prematurely (yeah right), and Weezy went back to the lab to create a new C3

What didn't make the final release?

- La, La - Weezy doing his version of Jay's Hard Knock Life (imo)

I saw this clear a dance floor a few weeks back.

It's more in the vein of the "loop it and a drum kit" sampling that is conducive to Nas Formula rapping.

Absolutely no love.

- (I feel like) Dying - Probably the weirdest record we've heard from a rapper that can still get on commercial radio and isn't named Dre3k.

What would have happened if Dying was on the final C3?

Who would have eaten it up?
- Pitchfork and OKP heads?
- What about the provebial dudes @ the barbershop/on the corner?

Would the record company have even allowed it?

There are some really big questions wrt to post lyrical rapping.

Are the rappers that are popular now because they're
- post lyrical

or

- in spite of post lyricality.

one

DocZeus said...

After reading this series, I still am not sure if I buy into your premise of "post-lyricism" or at least on the part of Kanye.

If you were to ask Mr. West if he aspires to be a great traditional emcee, I'm sure his response would be emphatically "yes." I just don't think Kanye has the physical skills to pull off his clunky lines without sounding really awkward. To me, Kanye has poor breath control and doesn't know how to connect words together as well he should.Kanye's greatest flaw as emcee is his flow not his rhymes. His rhymes are perfectly fine as tradtional lyricists go but he kills himself because he approximates what he thinks is great flow and it always comes off as forced and awkard. He comes off as Puffy if Puffy had better ghost writing. It seems to me that he just doesn't have the internal rhythms that somebody like Nas or Jay-Z or Biggie has. So his material can come across as akward if he tries to do the intricate internal lines that those guys do. He is a much better emcee when he simplifies his structure.

I'm not sure if that qualifies him as "post-lyrical" or as just a guy whose strength isn't in rhyming. To me, people who think Kanye's wack because he's not a great emcee are missing the point. I like Kanye because he's a genius musician/producer and crafts albums that function as a thematic work of art. He's a true artist.

Personally, my favorite rappers all have a great internal rhyme structure which is why I favor the "Nas Formula" as you have called it. I don't know if I buy into the premise that anybody's intentionally wack. That seems radically counter-initutive to the cultural traditions of the rapper.

cocaine said...

The more you write, the less I understand your point.

Jesus Shuttlesworth said...

i am still unsure of how the de la soul formula fits in and how it is really that different.

also, there have to be other influences besides 3 Stacks, like busta or missy as we talked about in the comments last time. could you elaborate a bit more on that? especially in terms of rappers that are not from the south but play with meter/writing.

AaronM said...

I feel like I agree more with this as it goes along. You're refining your points each go-round in a really thoughtful way.
It's cool to see people actually debating intelligently in a comments section.

brandon said...

Tom-
Part of me wants to keep writing on this bullshit, in part because there's nothing else going on to write about it, so maybe I'll discuss it, but Cam's undoubtedly a big, big part of this. I don't think you'd have Lil Wayne or Kanye (who's been talking up Cam way before everyone else did), Cam's THE post-lyrical guy in many ways.

Devin? I'm not sure.

K Orr-
Good thoughts and you know, this could go on forever, so I sort of make some shortcuts or concessions. It's an admittedly muddled thesis and once it got a lot of comments, the aim was more to just keep people talking.

cocaine (Noz?)-
? It's not that complicated or even that insightful. Each part even has a handy sub-heading to explain what I'm saying.

and finally, just a general statement: I, like everyone here, PREFER "the Nas formula" too...

Dart Adams said...

You done did it again, Brandon. On the other side of things, did you see my Livication post I did in honor of No Trivia yet?

One.

k. orr said...

WRT to Kanye and the Nas to Weezy chain

Track 1 - the Nas Formula

- Coke La Rock
- Melle Mel
- Run DMC
- Kool Moe Dee/LL
- Rakim/Kane/Chuck/Kool G. Rap
- Nas/Biggie
- Jay Z

Track 2?
- Run DMC
- Rakim
- Ice Cube
- 2 Short
- Scarface/UGK
- Snoop (bone thugs)
- Tupac
- Juvenile
- Hiero (stated influence on Kast)
- Dre3k
- Mase (influence on Kanye, relax of nas formula after biggie passes)
- Juicy J/8ball/MJG
- Fabo of D4L (Laffy Taffy really opens a lane for "snap rap")

^^All these roads lead to TI, Jeezy, Weezy, Kanye - be they influences on the mc's, or what audiences start to expect.

50 Cent is the melding of the both tracks?

Jordan said...

So it's like reverse comic relief? Where (to use jay's Shakespeare comparison) Ready to Die is like Hamlet in that it's really serious most of the time but it's got all these moments of humor that both release tension and make it more emotionally effective while Carter 3 or Graduation is like The Tempest in that it's a bunch of goofy shit but whenever they throw in the heavier stuff it hits hard almost because it's surrounded by goofiness? I guess that works.

Overall though, I feel this lyrical/post-lyrical divide is kind of silly, as you can see by the number of examples people have been throwing around, everyone's both lyrical and post-lyrical, using parts of the "Nas formula" but also fucking with it a bit. And as Zilla rightly implies this was going on before the height of lyricism (Q-Tip) as well as during (Andre) and after (Wayne and Kanye).

brandon said...

Jordan-
This could get real pretentious and out-there, but there's a sense that this "lots of one thing then the reversal" is a big part of art and culture in the past decade or so. This sense of wrapping more serious emotions in quirk or artifice is Wes Anderson's movies. Pop art to some extent is about this too, and tons of other examples.

Furthermore, I'd suggest that the way Wayne and Kanye approach their verses is more close to real-life. Most of my day and most of my thoughts are not contemplative and serious, but stupid and silly, occasionally I stumble upon something smart or interesting...

quan said...

Should there be a distinction between "post-lyrical" rappers like Wayne/Kanye/Andre and someone like Mims/Soulja Boy? I see that all of them have in common at least a sort of abandonment of the Nas formula. But then the first group, they actually seem concerned with lyrical style so that they do post-lyrical stuff like going off-meter and random silly punchlines. The other group seems something more like "non-lyrical", not at all concerned with their lyrics and just relying on their beats (though if I've completely missed Mims' lyrical genius, let me know).

Or is there maybe a difference between general post-lyrical hip-hop music, something they all make, and post-lyrical rap style, something only the first group engages in?

tray said...

"Kanye and Wayne do however, try really really hard to think of wacky and goofy punchlines and there's just no doubting they know those lines suck."

Wayne, maybe, but Kanye has given umpteen interviews where he's been like, did you hear my brilliant line about the Devil wears Prada? I'm killing shit this year! They should give me lyricist of the year at the Source Awards! And you could say, maybe he's making fun of himself, but no, I think he's just an idiot (in this regard anyway). Like do you really suppose when he righteously bitched on Crack Music that the government "tried to put us in a box like styrofoam," that was intentionally bad? Or all the other reams of awful lines he's written over the past few years? I'm sorry, I just can't buy it.

DocZeus said...

What about somebody like Jim Jones? Under your definition, he would be post-lyrical with his adlibs and what not although I think everybody would just about agree that he's just really, really awful?

Jesus Shuttlesworth said...

doc, i think he's both.

mind you, i don't believe this, but is it possible that this whole trend started with Juelz and Weezy redoing "Black Republican" with lines like "flyer than an ostrich?"

DocZeus said...

"doc, i think he's both.

mind you, i don't believe this, but is it possible that this whole trend started with Juelz and Weezy redoing "Black Republican" with lines like "flyer than an ostrich?""

Yeah but is what he's doing funadamentally different than what Kanye or Jeezy or Cam or Wayne is doing. I mean I think we can all agree that Jimmy is objectively much worse at what he does than any of those rappers but if I understand what Brandon is saying (and I'll admit I don't quite grasp all of it) is that since post-lyricism rejects the aethetics of what traditional "Nas" lyricism considers "good" than wouldn't it follow that it rejects what tradtional lyricism considers wack.

I guess what I'm asking is: Is there nothing considered "wack" in a post-lyrical ideology and is post-lyricism post-criticism in a sense?

Akmat Nzamad said...

Sorry, I didn't read all the comments but is there a pre-lyrical phase and is Nas the measuring stick, like part of a golden age? I mean, wu were throwing nonsensical non-sequiters before illmatic hit, and despite the message by grandmaster flash and the overt politcs of criminal minded I'm pretty sure it was mostly fun braggadocio for a while.

Jay (d)eff Kay said...

doc: there's definitely wack music in a post lyrical landscape. especially if we're acknowledging the pros of artists like wayne, cam and kanye. soulja boy, for example rejects the nas formula just as much wayne does. but unlike wayne, he does very little else in terms of being enterprising and interesting w/ his output. So yeah, wack is definitely still in the building I doubt brandon's discussion of post-lyricism is an apologist's take on justifying the current rap scene. i viewed as an attempt to better understand and articulate its motivations. also, you do a immense disservice to post lyricists (and any group of people for that matter) when you associate jim jones w/ them . jim jones as post lyricist? post-autistic maybe. post-wack definitely

Beezer B said...

I think you're onto something here Brandon with

"This could get real pretentious and out-there, but there's a sense that this "lots of one thing then the reversal" is a big part of art and culture in the past decade or so. This sense of wrapping more serious emotions in quirk or artifice is Wes Anderson's movies. "

I can say for one that ten years ago I was more than up for earnestness in rap. Lots of it. It might just be that I was a teenager when "2000 Seasons" came out but I loved that shit, and I remember K. Orr here loving that shit too and he wasn't a teenager then. (What up Kari?)

I think people in the ten years since, certainly myself, have moved away from wanting to listen to purely earnest rapping. We do need "I'm Not You" in our lives but we'd quite like it after we've just listened to "Grindin".
We do want Andre's verse on "Throw Some Ds" but we want the chorus to kick in with the beat like that.

I watched a documentary about 68 and the student movement and all that stuff the other day. Watching it, regardless of how much you agree with some of what they said, you're going "you naive fucks, you can't just say some shit like that".

That's kind of how I feel listening to "earnest rap".

For me it starts and ends with Hov. He seems to me the first rapper to get big of style. He wasn't earnest like Nas, he only drops insight once every 30 bars. He didn't gather the morbid teenage crowd of Big or Pac. He wasn't getting all the girls like Uncle L.
He just raps and swaggers, and if you're listening he does it REALLY well a lot of the time. He doesn't drop albums he drops LINES and most of these post rappers were initially at least (admittedly in the case of Kanye and Wayne) just playing with his yo-yo.

DocZeus said...

"also, you do a immense disservice to post lyricists (and any group of people for that matter) when you associate jim jones w/ them . jim jones as post lyricist? post-autistic maybe. post-wack definitely"

But Jim Jones also sort of eschews traditional lyricism as well, does things like rhyme the same word with the same word, and is the most frequent employer of the adlib this side of Young Jeezy. And most importantly, his "appeal" (and I use that word loosely) is derived from a viewpoint that consciously rejects the Nas Formula. Other than the fact, he sucks balls he fits in perfectly with the idea I believe.

I wrote something similar to Brandon's thesis about a year ago on my site about what I was referring to a devolution of the art of emceeing and how I felt it was becoming increasingly and increasingly irrelevant in this era and how I felt the art was suffering because of it. Check it out, it's not as well written as this piece and I could certainly stand to revise and refine my points but it's full of traditional reactionary goodness:

http://gooddoctorzeus.blogspot.com/2007/08/death-of-mc-from-lyrics-and-flow-to-ad.html

Jay (d)eff Kay said...

Doc: going back to your excellent piece on 'death of the mc' , and connecting that with brandon piece on post lyricism, if anything todays rap scene seems to moving to the basic roots of MC-ing. as in master of ceremony, moving the crowd. coz all these dances, and chants and catchphrases and other post lyrical devices that are being derided right now have much more in common with the parties that gave birth to hip hop. and if we're talking about an evolution, the creme de la creme of todays emcees are evolving and taking on that MC role with a more innovative twist on how they interpret the "nas formula" of lyricism . thaddeus clark actually has a pretty great piece on the whole subjective definition of "lyricism"

Jay (d)eff Kay said...

and to just add to my point, if we are gonna buy the premise of this post lyrical era thats ongoing right now, we're being really unfair to this era , which is obviously still evolving, when we compare them to the heights of the 'golden era'. I mean its pretty easy to be judging and recognizing cultural movements in hindsight. ditto regarding mythologizing certain eras till they seem immaculate. So its even worse when when we take the now-acclaimed classics of the golden era, and compare them to the very worst of today's evolving music scene. Sure its easy to claim that the post lyrical era is wack if we're comparing nas to jim jones. but its also unfair. Are we gonna pretend like the golden era, or the lyrical era if you please, was impeccably chock full of great rappers? and that the 'nas formula' never got repetitive and tired?

underground rap said...

sometimes rappers just say what the hell they wanna. corny or not... if it's liked, it's percieved as genius... if people dont't like it... it's wack.

dcdro said...

Cormega is post lyrical

rough said...

when you look at 'classic' artists even though they are decades apart and before the cliches everyone was just talking about the same shit, guns, money and rep.

"I'm the carry-out kid when my trigger's in cock/I'll be carryin' out bodies stiff as a rock/Carryin' out a million dollars in my pockets and hand/But I carry out orders from no man" -Furious five

"drinkin' straight out the eight bottle/Do I look like a mutha fuckin role model?/To a kid lookin' up ta me/Life ain't nothin but bitches and money." - N.W.A

"Just a nigga, walking with his finger on the trigger/ Make enough figures until my pockets get bigger/ I ain't the type of brother made for you to start testin/ Give me a Smith and Wessun I'll have niggaz undressin" - Nas

"He winked his eye like his star status mattered/ They rat-a-tat-tatted to make his blood splatter/ You rockin' crazy ice and all you do is cling static/ And rollin' down to Brooklyn late night is problematic" - Black Star

I'm not trying to O'reilly and pull lines out of context, but that is kind of my point. These same lines are there if you look for them what is different is the context. What makes these groups/artists so different from each other is what they surrounded the (now) cliches with, more of the same lines, criticism, nonsense rhymes. These days there's a lot more variation in actual song content. You even have vets like Mos doing entire songs with no reference to hip-hop culture at all (Lifetime).

On top of that in a lot of hip-hop currently I think there's a lot less focus on the context more on the one liners/verses whether they be meaningful or funny. Especially in the given the internet environment, where it's more about the track than the album.
It's more about saying something than having a dialogue.

The point of this is that I agree with you about the recent rap trends "non-sequitur similes, increasingly out-there pop culture references, a bounds-less sense of free association, and a tendency to mix and merge musical influences". But I don't see it as bucking any formula, simply a product of the fact that the hip-hop world has gotten bigger.

Anonymous said...

I'm biased. Let's get it out of the way right now. To cookie cut what true lyricism is by saying it's a nas formula and what not is further evidence that people want to asscociate stupidity with what's cool. At what point does the music stop following trends and actually do it's true purpose and inspire?(Lauren Hill) WHat's the reason we fiend for ignorance and applaud ignorance and deem commiting acts of ignorance as keeping it real. If keeping it real means I have to compromise my integrity on a record at the expense of worldwide audiences who are very well influenced by what I say, then I wanna be fake as fake can be. I want to keep it fake 24-7. I'll keep it fake until we break the spell from this bizzaro world where we hold people accountible for the shit we say. If you look at all forms of black music up until this point, they all had thoughts to uplift or inspire positivity. It's 2008, we have a black president, and we still wanna parade all the shiny objects we can amass, all the excuses that the music glorifies. (Fatherless homes, drug addicited young parents, lethal ends to triffling disputes)
Why is the rest of the world evolving and maturing except the concepts and ideals of the African American? People who have nothing to do with the music's origin, bank on the fact that if the keep us as dumb as we are then we won't every leagally organize, question the powers that be. I'm not a fan of rap music that endorses companies that are otherwise destructive to their communities. "Is throw some Ds on it" a song or a commercial? When do we question the middle man and his higher ups? When do we take the music that is defining us and actually say something credible as opposed to, "Yea son, I used to deal drugs and all of that na mean, but now I got this rap music and I'm ballin with out all of that." ?
My worlds is not limited to pimps and hoes,
When do we truly question why that's all we know?